The WimLex Show #12

01:25

Willem: Maybe you could start by telling us why you decided to start a bank?

Ali: I had the idea quite a while back. As you know, I have other companies – such as TransIP, which I was primarily focussed on at the time. We were attracting a lot of great talent, and it just kept on
growing; eventually I came to the conclusion that it was best for me, for the company, and for said talent for me to step aside so that they could flourish. That left me with a lot of time to think about
what to do with my life (I was a lot younger then and had fewer grey hairs…)

Willem: And you still don’t have many!

Ali: You’re just saying that to be nice.

Willem: Look at me: I’m bald!

Ali: So I was thinking about what to do and even wrote a book; that was a lifelong dream of mine and the title – Ondernemers hebben nooit geluk – translates into English as “Entrepreneurs never just get lucky!”. In the book, I look back at how we started TransIP with literally nothing during my computer science studies and ended up as the biggest web hoster in the Netherlands in just five years.
After that, I came to the conclusion that I wanted to start something new, because sitting on the beach with a big boat was getting kind of boring: as it turns out, I’m quite a hard worker! Moreover, I
worked out that there are two things I really like doing: 1) building new products which delight people, and 2) doing something which has a real impact. So at first, I wondered whether I should so
something that has to do with the environment, e.g. going to Africa and doing something with water. But that wasn’t really me. Then the financial crisis started…

Willem: So when was all of this exactly?

Ali: Now were at 2010, 2011, and I was seeing a lot of people suffer. Friends of mine couldn’t get mortgages any more or suffered from falling house prices; some of my entrepreneurial friends even
went bankrupt because of the credit crunch. At the same time, the overall societal climate became unpleasant: suddenly, all bankers were immoral.

Willem: It’s the system, not the person, right?

Ali: Indeed. Most bankers aren’t in leagues with the devil! Obviously, some really are evil, but mostly, it really is the system. The solutions being proposed didn’t ring true to me, though, and seemed if
anything mere sticking plasters. That’s when it dawned on me that the banking system affects the whole of society and is clearly completely flawed – and that no-one was really tackling the issue. So I resolved to do things differently.

5:30

Willem: The financial system is gigantic. Which specific part are you trying to fix?

Ali: Currently, most banks are entirely the same. ING, for instance, a big Dutch bank, has orange as its corporate colour; but if you take their materials, switch the orange to green and change the branding
a bit, they’d be more or less indistinguishable from those of its main competitor ABN AMRO. Many banks offer the same products, the same type of service, and by and large, employ the same type of
people. As such, consumers have very little freedom of choice.
Our profound belief is that the financial crisis was a systemic crisis because there is no diversity in the system; and as we know from nature, regardless of how strong individual plants may be,
monocultures are vulnerable. In nature, diversity is an insurance: some plants grow better or worse under different conditions and, together, create a stable balance. So with bunq, we’re trying to do
things differently – and give consumers choice once again. That means completely different services, completely different products, and a completely different user experience compared to ING, ABN
AMRO, or high-street banks in other countries – Deutsche Bank and Commerzbank in Germany, for example. Consumers can now once again really choose: do I want to stick with the old dinosaurs (and
continue to enjoy the benefits they offer) or do I want to go for something new which saves me time, lets me manage my account on my mobile phone, etc.; or (and this is also an option) do I want to use both so that I have one account to do some things and another account for other things?

Willem: So you’re trying to replace bank branches with apps; but don’t high-street banks like ING and ABN AMRO also offer apps nowadays?

Ali: Well, our goal isn’t to eliminate bricks-and-mortar bank branches. What bunq wants to do is to provide a completely different user experience: i.e. one where the customer is control and which is as easy, smooth, and convenient as possible. That is our mind-set, and if you take that approach and look at the technology out there, the logical consequence is to have a great app which is nice to look at and easy to use. So yes, other banks have apps, too; but for them, an app is just a channel. For us, making the customer happy is our sole purpose – in future, we might need to do something else, but currently, that means providing an app.

(Willem says that a colleague at Dept. showed him the bunq app and some of its eye-catching features: scanning invoices, opening multiple IBAN accounts, etc. He asks Ali where they get the
inspiration to develop these functions; Ali replies that user proximity is key – both asking them what they want and thinking about things from a user’s perspective. Ali asks rhetorically if Willem knows
any entrepreneurs who enjoy spending their time on administrative tasks. No? Hence the invoice-scan function which auto-fills payment details and saves a copy of the invoice for later bookkeeping use.)

11:50

Willem: We’re both Tesla drivers and Teslas, as we know, are essentially computers on wheels. Would you say that bunq is an IT company in finance? Or are you a bank in a more traditional way?

Ali: Let me put it this way: we are a company which truly cares about its customers and uses tech to serve them in the most efficient way possible. The industry in which we just happened to start is
banking…

Willem: So what’s next?

Ali: Time will tell. For now, banking is still a huge challenge.

Willem: Right! The batteries, its Solar City, and Elon Musk may soon be flying people to the moon with another enterprise of his. Back on earth, though: Ali, in terms of your target market, what is balance between consumer and business banking at bunq?

Ali: First and foremost, we target in humans – in all their glorious diversity and all the things they do! We are the Bank of the Free and all sorts of people have joined us (some call themselves “bunqers”).
Our aim is to make human life as easy and seamless as possible; so if you have your own business, that’s fine; if you have a couple of employees, that’s also fine; if you are employee yourself, that’s
fine, too. So we’re trying to respond to people’s needs as human beings, not chop them up into segments.

Willem: Speaking of the human element: my colleague Danny who uses you said that, as you are a young company, he’s still somewhat hesitant to transfer large sums of money using you. I mean,
although established banks are suffering from scandal after scandal, people know that they are regulated and that their money is safe; the same lays apply to bunq, of course, but it’s a trust issue. How are you tackling it?

Ali: Partly by stressing what you just said: we adhere to all the same laws and codes as established banks: so like at any other bank, your deposits are guaranteed up to €100,000 per user as part of the
EU scheme. As for the perspective issue, I think time will need to do some of the work. But let me ask you a question. Let’s say you have two doors: behind door number one, there’s a banker; behind
door number two, there is a coder. You need to entrust something very secret to one of them: it might be money, but it might be information or data. Which one would you pick?

(Willem says that as an entrepreneur, clearly he’d opt for the coder; most consumers, though, would probably still go for the banker. Ali thinks the issue is more that there is a disconnect between the
people consumers trust (probably coders) and the institutions they trust (still banks); sooner or later, though, consumer behaviour will catch up.)

18:15

Willem: Looking at one of our core markets, Germany, it’s striking how seriously consumers there take data protection – much more so than the Dutch. You are internationalising, so how do you deal
with privacy issues?

Ali: Well, one of the pillars on which we at bunq are founded is that we don’t sell your personal data: privacy has always been at the core of who we are because, going back to what I said earlier, we
want to address your desires as a human being, to delight you with what we do; and we don’t think that you would feel comfortable if we sold your data. As such, I think we are very well positioned for
the German market.

Willem: What is your growth strategy there?

Ali: The same as in the Netherlands: we give you an app that makes your life easier with all the security of a banking licence that will empower you to do whatever you want with whomever you
want – and that makes you feel like you are part of something rather than just a slave to a big corporate institution. What is more, our app adjusts to your style of living so that you can be free.

Willem: What about resources and staffing? What is your growth trajectory in the German market like?

Ali: The way we like to do things is to start really small – totally under the radar – with an initial group of bunq users. Then we take a close look at how they use the app, at what they like and don’t
like; that’s important because paying is intimate. Apart from refreshing Facebook or Instagram, paying is what you do most every day, and it’s also social, because in a transaction, you interact with
other people: the baker, the place you buy your coffee, etc. Given this intimacy, there are subtle cultural differences between the Dutch and the Germans or the Spanish and the Italians…

Willem: You recently announced Italy and Spain.

Ali: Exactly. And we like to take our time and see how we can adapt to local ways. Then we wait until they see that we are really adding value to their lives and get enthusiastic – I mean, how many people do you know who are actually enthusiastic about a bank? When we hit that level, we go for growth.

(On the subject of growth, Willem mentions something he read about bunq planning to open to external capital – Ali terms these rumours “grossly inaccurate” and explains how the media reports
came about due to a misinterpretation of his comments. Thus far, Ali has kept bunq fully self-financed to make sure it has the space and time to perfect its relationship with users without needing to
deliver returns to investors.)

24:55

Willem: So how many people work for bunq right now – or should I ask: “How many bunqers are there?”

Ali: There are around 90 of us, but we’ve stopped calling ourselves ‘bunqers’ because, interestingly enough, we noticed that users were starting to refer to themselves as bunqers, too. That’s where you see what a strong community we have.

Willem: From the outside, you make the impression of being an inspirational, yet somewhat demanding leader. If you look at comments on Glassdoor, for instance, there are some very positive
ones, but also some people describing the culture as ‘work hard, play hard’. What kind of people thrive at bunq?

Ali: ‘Work hard, play hard’ really sums it up well. In military terms, you might compare us to the special forces: we have a lot of very bright, very determined people. Just last night, I had a 9.00pm
meeting and the person who came by noticed the energy we have at bunq: that is very special. Many of our staff used to be top athletes or musicians, and that is the mind-set you need to really thrive at bunq. The flipside to that is that, if you do have that kind of approach, there aren’t many companies who will provide you with an environment where it is appreciated and cultivated. So if you know
anyone with that kind of ambition, let them know about us!

Willem: What is your average age?

Ali: 28, I believe.

Willem: Are you trying to stay young or are you looking to balance that out with some people who have experience?

Ali: It’s simple: we are looking for talented, dedicated, bright people. We’ve had 16-year-olds, and that was fine. We’ve also had 60-year-olds, and that was fine, too.

Willem: You were 16 when you started your first company.

Ali: I was! And that’s why we took on the 16-year-old: he wanted to do a summer work experience placement and, although he normally would have been too young even for us, he was smart, passionate, and energetic. And he did a great job! We also had a 17-year-old a few months back who turned 18 at bunq. We are a very special group of people and I’m really proud of each and every one of us.

28:05

Willem: Looking at you as an entrepreneur, after founding TransIP and The Datacenter Group (DCG), you now have bunq. So there are three companies now – and that begs the question: how do you
divide your time?

Ali: What I really like to do is to focus on one thing – and then do that really well. Currently, that one thing is bunq. Both TransIP and DCG, which I both co-founded, have lots of amazing people who I
greatly enjoy working with and whom I can trust in the long term. As such, both companies are now being run by people I’ve known for years and who are similarly-minded to the people we have at
bunq: dedicated, focussed, and very bright – real crème de la crème. I trust them to do better than I would myself.

Willem: So you’re not in the offices there on a daily basis.

Ali: No, and frankly I’m ashamed, because I’m still emotionally very attached to both companies and I don’t have the space and time to visit them more often. Following an acquisition, TransIP now has
four offices, and I’ve been doing my best to visit the new ones, but I haven’t yet been able to do so. That’s one thing I dislike about my current situation: not having enough time to spend with people I
like.

30:05

Willem: My final question is: what are the main challenges bunq has to master to succeed in the FinTech space?

Ali: I think it’s the mind-set we discussed earlier. I would like to ask people listening to this or people who hear friends talking about bunq to just give it a try – no strings attached. You can get the app in
five minutes and try it for free for 30 days. If you really use it properly, you’ll start to understand how it makes you free. So use it and then decide if it’s for you.

(Willem wraps up the podcast by thanking Ali – and promising to try bunq himself.)